Ed Rampell

A lot of Jacobin readers probably aren’t aware that your 1991 film JFK inspired a far-reaching act of Congress, helping to declassify thousands of national security records. Could you tell us about that legislation and how it was able to pry so many secret national security documents out of government hands?

Oliver Stone

It was called the Assassination Records Collection Act. Basically, there were no exceptions allowed, except for dire cases of national security, as far as I understand. But it was never enforced. Congress had no mechanism to enforce it. The ARRB ran out of funds by 1997 or ’98 and it was closed down. There was no continuation, no mechanism to continue. In which case the CIA takes over and it doesn’t do anything. They rejected everything that was asked of them.

Ed Rampell

To the best of your knowledge, has there ever been another Hollywood movie that inspired federal legislation?

Oliver Stone

Not that I know of.

Ed Rampell

What was it like, once again, testifying before Congress about the JFK assassination?

Oliver Stone

Rip Van Winkle. I woke up after thirty years and here I am again, same thing basically. Frankly, my interpretation is that they never absorbed the facts of the Warren Commission. There are numerous things the Warren Commission said — we’re talking about a thousand different things. There are lots of different clues out there, they’re in different places. It takes a computer or a Sherlock Holmes to bring all those facts into one space. If that were done, by a language model for a gigantic computer to put all this together, then people could understand.

First, the lack of original evidence — the chain of custody was broken on rifles and bullets. Meaning, from the beginning there is no case. I added [in the 2021 documentary JFK Revisited] the three women who didn’t see Oswald [in the Texas School Book Depository Building from which he supposedly fired shots at President Kennedy], as well as the fingerprints of intelligence all over Oswald for so many years. It’s very disturbing to anybody who’s sane, who follows these things and knows how the government works. Why do you turn over Oswald’s 201 File [an Official Military Personnel File] to [CIA Counterintelligence Chief James Jesus] Angleton, and he sits on it forever? You tell me.

I think the most interesting piece of testimony I gave was actually anecdotal. At the end I mentioned the Angleton story, he was quoted as saying — he was a Catholic and apparently had some kind of sense of guilt — he said he was there with all the founders [of the CIA], he knew them very well, [Allen] Dulles and [Richard] Helms. He said, “They were all going to meet up in hell again.”

That’s not evidence, but my god, that’s something you’ve got to pay attention to. You know, it is solvable. An intelligent person can bring it together and show all the holes in the case. First of all, you’ve got to start with the fact that you have not convicted Oswald of the murder. Who did the murder there? There is no murderer. There’s nobody on the sixth floor [of the Texas School Book Depository Building] to take the murder rap.

Ed Rampell

Why do you think Trump is releasing these files now?

Oliver Stone

Because he’s expressed a desire for a more transparent government several times. He himself may have strong doubts about the case. Many people do. In fact, a majority of the people don’t believe the Warren Commission. If you remember correctly, when JFK came out in ’91, I said this is not fact — but this is “countermyth.” One myth creates the other myth. This is what I believe happened. And I got torn apart for that.

But since then, we’ve proven, the AARB proved, that [Secretary of Defense Robert] McNamara said very clearly that he was pulling the troops out of Vietnam. That was in May of ’63, right before Kennedy was killed. He says it out loud to the military leaders in Honolulu: We’ve got to go faster. “Win or lose,” that’s what he said. Win or lose. In other words, Kennedy wanted out, win or lose.

Look at the testimony. It’s in front of your eyes, and yet people don’t.

Ed Rampell

What role, if any, is RFK Jr playing in the release of these classified documents?

Oliver Stone

I can’t speak for him, but he’s stated that he believed there was conspiracy in his father’s death and in his uncle’s death. I’ve never heard his opinion on Martin Luther King or Malcolm X, but certainly there’s a suspicious pattern of assassination in the ’60s. All the stories are incredible when you examine them, and they have been examined quite well by detectives and researchers.

Ed Rampell

As you said, thousands of files have just been released and it will take a long time to analyze them. But so far, what are some of the biggest takeaways, biggest revelations?

Oliver Stone

The Schlesinger memo on the CIA [Reorganization of June 30, 1961] has certainly come out in full. It was redacted originally. It’s concerning about the CIA — almost 47 percent of the State Department was CIA agents abroad, in our embassies. It’s a strange assumption of power by a secret intelligence agency, very strange. Schlesinger and Kennedy both thought the CIA should be completely reorganized.

The power of covert action was given to them in 1947 in one small clause in the creation of the Central Intelligence Agency. The ability to create covert action is the key mistake that was made in the origin. Because that gave them a power that they have inflated to enormous proportions, like an elephant. And no one can stop them.

Even [Harry S.] Truman, who signed the papers [creating the CIA], had tremendous doubts in ’63. There’s a long story — Dulles flew specially to Missouri to talk to him and try to get him off the case because he wrote an op-ed in which he questioned the CIA’s role in government. That article existed for a while in the Washington Post and it’s been modified and modified and historians argue because Dulles worked very hard to take it out of circulation.

Ed Rampell

On April 1, Jefferson Morley, author of The Ghost: The Secret Life of CIA Spymaster James Jesus Angleton, testified about other revelations regarding the CIA. He said Angleton, the CIA’s chief of counterintelligence, compiled an Oswald file before the assassination and had even surveilled Oswald’s mail.

Oliver Stone

Yeah, that’s true. But on the other hand, the AARB also found the fingerprints of intelligence all over Oswald going back to 1959. In other words, Angleton preempted a lot of the material and apparently hid it. That is very important. What did he hide? What did he know? I always figured Angleton was very involved in this. That’s why I used his quote at the hearing. Angleton makes sense, because he’s the counterterrorism chief.

Jeff Morley has done a great job on following up on three or four different aspects of the case. George Joannides was a [CIA] case officer running the anti-Castro Cuban group. He was working in ’63, he was there [in Miami] during all those episodes dealing with all these covert groups. Joannides lied so much. When the House did their investigation in ’78 — Morley tells the story in JFK Revisited — they asked Joannides, “Do you have any knowledge of the case of the 1963 Warren Commission investigation?” Joannides says, “No, I wasn’t involved in ’63 in any way in Oswald or the assassination case.” He was lying and [G. Robert] Blakey found out about it afterward. It’s in the film — he says, “I’ll never trust the CIA again.” Oh yeah, Blakey woke up, finally, in 1978. But Blakey had a lot of power [as the chief counsel to the US House Select Committee on Assassinations]. It’s too bad. He’s still alive — he should be called.

Ed Rampell

During your April 1 testimony, you called for the JFK assassination to be “reopened” and “reinvestigated.” By who? Why?

Oliver Stone

There should be a new committee. From the House or the Senate or both — a joint committee. There are so many ways bureaucracy works. But definitely. There’s no proof [that Oswald shot Kennedy]! There’s no chain of custody, nothing stands up in court. If Oswald had gone to court, that case would have been thrown out by any fucking judge. It doesn’t hold up! What about the bullet? What about the rifle? The testimony that Oswald wasn’t even on the sixth floor?

Richard Schweiker [a member of the Senate’s Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities] said that the fingerprints of intelligence are all over Oswald from the beginning. And nobody goes into that. Why do we let the CIA get away with that?

We haven’t even brought up the autopsy. That autopsy was a sham, a disgrace! Forty-two people saw a huge gaping wound in the back of President Kennedy’s head, right here. Forty-two! That’s at Parkland [Hospital] and at Bethesda [Naval Hospital] — Bethesda was the autopsy. Forty-two people and they all point to the same area. How does a head wound like that happen? It happens from the front — that’s an exit wound [Oswald allegedly shot Kennedy from behind]. A gigantic exit wound. That was buried.

You need some federal investigative force. They did it in South Africa with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and in Cambodia, they did it. These things happen. This is a major murder of a major leader at a major time. And it was done under the most suspicious circumstances possible. We owe a truth and reconciliation commission to this country.

Ed Rampell

If that ever happens, do you think we’ll ever really get to the bottom of who actually shot JFK?

Oliver Stone

Certainly I think we can show the people who’d be most interested in his elimination. The skeletons are gone. The truth is always difficult to reach.