Dave Martin: At a broader level nonprofit news enables. Much more coverage of issues and topics that perhaps a for-profit model would not. Allow. So for example, I mean, you can look at incentives of a for-profit model versus a nonprofit model. when you go on the internet and you’re looking for news, you’re going to get served a lot of interesting things from a for-profit model. At the end of the day they’re based, their business model’s based on ad revenue and they need clicks. How can people click in? you can sensationalize a topic or, you could, use some click bait, maybe a very attractive photo or something just to get people to come in and be on your website for a little bit and then leave our currency is really impact.

Mike DiGirolamo (narration): Welcome to the Mongabay Newscast. I’m your co-host, Mike Delamo. Bring you weekly conversations with experts, authors, scientists and activists working on the front lines of conservation, shining a light on some of the most pressing issues facing our planet, and holding people in power to account. This podcast is edited on Gadigal land. Today on the newscast we speak with Dave Martin. He’s Mongabay’s, director of philanthropy, or in other words, the force behind much of Mongabay’s fundraising efforts. We talk a lot on this show about how we are a nonprofit news outlet, and that we rely on the generosity of readers and listeners like you to keep the lights on and bring you independent news from Nature’s Frontline. It’s fair to say it wouldn’t be possible without someone like Dave. And yet, it’s always a little surprising that our nonprofit model isn’t as widely known. today, Dave explains it, how it works and why it is vital, not just for Mongabay, but journalism as an institution, how it enables impact driven news as opposed to sensationalism. Now, I reached out to Dave to do this interview because I felt he had something important to say and I was not disappointed. If you’ve ever needed a primer on how nonprofit journalism drives impact and how you can support independent news, whether it’s Mongabay or another outlet you admire, this is a conversation for you.

Mike: Dave it is great to have you with us and welcome to the Mongabay Newscast. Before we launch into it, please introduce yourself and let our listeners know who you are and what you do here at Mongabay.

Dave: Yeah. thanks for having me. Hi everybody. So my name is Dave Martin. I’ve been with Mongabay going into my 10th year. I am right now the Director of Philanthropy. I was the first development hire at Mongabay. Our CEO Butler hired me. we started having conversations back in 2015, maybe even as early as 2014. And yeah, it has been really rewarding to watch. I. The organization grow and become, more dynamic. And it’s just been great to see. So I’m really pleased to be here and it’s an honor to be on the podcast with you, Mike. Thank you.

Mike: Yeah. And thanks for being here. So can you give us a little bit more detail into as much as you can, of course about what it is you do and how you go about it.

Dave: Yeah. So I mean, in a nutshell what I do is I, fundraise on behalf of Mongabay. So more specifically, we’re fundraising for independent journalism. there’s a lot of caveats there and there’s a lot to understand. But that’s at a very basic level, what I do. How do I go about doing it? I would say on a personal level, I am, I guess I would call myself a relational fundraiser, a quality over quantity type person. I really seek to find and engage in and build trusting relationships with. With funding organizations and individuals who wanna support independent journalism about the environment.

Mike: There’s a few threads we’re gonna pull on there. Before we get further into that though, why do you work for Mongabay? Because, you have this, you have a unique connection to nature that I think is worth exploring. And your background is, so interesting. What brought you eventually to work with Mongabay?

Dave: Going way back in time. I’ve just always loved nature as a kid. I, we wouldn’t, we would go camping for a lot of our vacations. Spend a lot of time in the Sierra Nevadas go fly fishing with my dad. I. I was always interested in herps, so I was, as a kid, and I don’t do this anymore because I know better about having a lo, a smaller footprint, but I used to, turn over rocks and logs looking for lizards and salamanders and snakes. So that, that was pretty foundational for me. I think I’ve just always felt a deep connection and empathy with wildlife. I feel like. They’ve never, there’s a lot of misunderstanding and a, sense of separateness that kind of us human beings have with our natural environment. And for some reason, maybe it’s experiential or. I don’t know exactly why, perhaps something innate or just an understanding that occurred to me at some point. I’ve never felt a huge sense of separateness with nature. So I have a kind of a sense of responsibility to where I want to contribute to protecting it. So that’s going way back. That is the foundation of why I do everything I do. So I thought it was worth going in there a little bit. I, would say on a. On a career level. What was foundational for me is in my mid to late twenties, I had the opportunity to move to Ecuador and live in the Ecuador in Amazon. While I was there my heart was captured and, I was surrounded by this, just immense biodiversity and biocultural diversity as well. Meeting local people, understanding the very, very unique set of threats that was going on in that part of the world, and trying to figure out a way where I contribute, I could contribute to helping That was a big driver in the rest of the course of my career. Eventually, like I, I said, I, I reached out to RT and he brought me on as the first development person. But where that happened actually was interesting. I met Rhet. I, worked at this company called Runa and have you had guayusa tea before?

Mike: Yes. Yeah, totally.

Dave: Are you caffeine sensitive?

Mike: I  wouldn’t call myself…actually. I probably drink a little bit too much coffee. But yeah, I love guayusa tea.

Dave: Yeah, so it, it’s a, it’s me, too, although I don’t drink caffeine anymore. At the time it was it had held this real significance for me because I was drinking it when I was in the Ecuador and Amazon. I eventually got brought into a company too. sell it and bring it to market here in the United States. And I was really attracted to the mission. It was, all about. Working with local communities, doing, agroforestry type cultivation and all this stuff. So I was really into it, but at the end of the day, it didn’t work out for me because I’d literally, I was just selling bottles of tea to a grocery manager at Albertsons or Whole Foods or something, and they weren’t really super interested in, impact. But when I reached out to Rhett, I knew he was going to have Manga Bay first gala, and I, think this was 2015. I basically, this was my pitch to rt. I said, I’ve been following you for a long time. I’ve learned a lot from Mongabay. I’m probably one of the biggest Mongabay fanboys there is. I think it’s really critical that people are going to be awake and alert while they’re listening to you speak At the gala, it was like. Later evening on a Tuesday or something. I, so I said, could I please come and, serve guayusa tea while you’re talking to people about Mongabay? So he brought me in and that’s where I really met Rhett for the first time. And I think he sensed at the very least, even if I didn’t have a huge amount of formal fundraising experience. I do have a background in grassroots fundraising that I had the energy that it would take to be successful at fundraising. So that’s how I got brought in.

Mike: When did it click in your head that you were like, oh, journalism is a vehicle for impact. Like this could actually make a really big difference in the world.

Dave: Yeah, great question. And this is the, dot connecting that I need to do when I’m speaking with, prospects and funders. I think it actually, I. This is embarrassing to say, but I don’t think it fully sunk in until after I started working here. a lot of what I was interested in when I was living in Ecuador was on the advocacy side of things. So that is, a type of communications, but it’s a totally different approach. So I guess. My personal experience, understanding how much I had learned from Mongabay. It had it the seed was planted, but it wasn’t until being fully enveloped in this organization and talking to my colleagues who you know, learning from them that I was, like, whoa, Mongabay is really something special. A very unique offering. And there’s been ample evidence in the past 10 years or so that it can achieve real world impact but I think that’s, I think that’s the critical piece is the real world impact that I’ve witnessed over time.

Mike: Yeah, I mean, let’s go ahead and dive into that because there’s something else to highlight here, which is pretty critical that a lot of people that respond to surveys that we put out don’t know, which is that we are a nonprofit.

Dave: Yes.

Mike: That’s a different model than say a larger outlet, which, relies on ad revenue. So why is that so critical?

Dave: That’s a really big question. I mean, I, I would say at the highest level of why nonprofit news is important. And by the way it’s partially my fault if our, readership doesn’t know that we’re a nonprofit. Let me go ahead and say we’re a nonprofit and we rely on contributions from you if you’re listening right now. But yeah, at a broader, at a broader level nonprofit news enables. Much more coverage of issues and topics that perhaps a for-profit model would not. Allow. So for example, I mean, you can look at incentives of a for-profit model versus a nonprofit model. when you go on the internet and you’re looking for news, you’re going to get served a lot of interesting things from a for-profit model. At the end of the day they’re based, their business model’s based on ad revenue and they need clicks. How can people click in? you can sensationalize a topic or, you could, use some click bait, maybe a very attractive photo or something just to get people to come in and be on your website for a little bit and then leave our currency is really impact. Those who fund us and those who read us, they’re really expecting, real world impact and high quality journalism. So we’re people are coming back to Mongabay because they’re interested in what we’re reporting on. There’s a really high level of quality that is informing their decisions and, their behaviors when it comes to environmental issues. So that’s what brings it back. and. Perhaps other, many other nonprofit news organizations as well are really driven by a drive to have high quality content as opposed to just the trashy content that you can see online that, even I get suckered into sometimes.

Mike: There’s something that Rhett likes to say, and I’m paraphrasing him slightly here, and he says something to the effect of eyeballs don’t equal impact. Can you explain what that means?

Dave: Yes. Yeah, it that, that’s great. That’s good verbiage, right? I’m gonna use that. I mean, I like to think of some of our real world impacts that we’ve had. I guess I could use this story. we’ve had a couple stories that if we were a for-profit, it would be, it’d be a disastrous failure. Maybe a few hundred people read the story or something like that. So it didn’t generate, enough money to keep our business afloat. In the nonprofit space and at Mongabay in particular, I’ll speak for us. we can have an exceptionally impactful story that, maybe doesn’t get the hundreds of thousands or millions of readers that, some of our other stories may get, but the people who were reading it might be in a position to actually do something with that information. They could be a conservation practitioner that is trying to learn of a specific intervention in their part of the world. That might work. It could be a policymaker who’s trying to understand extractive industries. It, could be a funder who’s looking for opportunities to fund and wants their money to go as far as possible. Oh, hey, I read that on Mongabay. That looks pretty good. I’m going to dig into that further. So yeah, I mean, I would say just in a nutshell, we’re looking at more of a qualitative audience. Than a quantitative audience. Not to say we’re not one of the most popular environmental news websites on the planet, that’s certainly true. But I think really the meat and potatoes of what makes us an interesting organization to look at if you’re interested in having impact is the quality of our audience. And that’s a big part of, what I speak to funders about.

Mike (narration): Hey listeners, thank you for tuning in, as always. If you’re interested in supporting Mongabay, we have a donate button in the upper right corner of the landing page at mongabay.com. You can click there and donate. But if you can’t, we always encourage you to share our podcast conversations with your friends and your networks, or leave a review on the podcast platform you’re tuning in on. This is one of the best ways to help increase the profile of our show and bring us to a wider audience. Thank you very much, and back to the conversation with Dave Martin. So a lot of people are sort of, would perhaps be sort of curious to know about how money is used here. does it come with strings attached? So, if someone wants to, because there, there are some ethical questions there. So, if someone donates to Mongabay, does that mean the money has to be used in a specific way or co or cover topics in a certain way?

Dave: Yeah, so that great question. I mean, yes. Disclaimer, We have what we, a very robust firewall at Mongabay. I’m not a journalist. I think really what it boils down to is I have to communicate. To, if it’s a specific grant coming in that, that money that’s coming in is funding independent journalism. The best way that we can ensure that happens and there’s or one of the best ways at, least at the organizational level is of course to have the firewall. It’s also to receive core funding. So funding that. We get to determine how to use it. that goes into a whole philosophy of trust-based philanthropy, which I would love to touch on as well. But the other form of funding that we receive beyond core funding is what we would call restricted funding. And this is where we start to look at program level support which is something we’re aiming to get more of as if we can’t get. The core funding, we’re really interested in program level support, so that would be something like supporting Mongabay Africa or Mongabay Indonesia, Mongabay, India our Ocean’s desk, things like that. And then more specifically because you asked about the strings being attached, et cetera, so I can tell you how specific funding what the model is there for receiving specific funding yet keeping the reporting independent. We have a program that’s called our special SRPs, our special reporting projects. And it’s been useful for scaling Mongabay because it really gives us, as an organization and me as a fundraiser an opportunity to fill gaps at an organizational level, reporting gaps. for example if we knew that there. , was maybe a regime change and then somewhere, or we wanted to report on, Hey, we just don’t have enough money for reporting on illegal wildlife trade. I can go and find a funder that might be interested in that specific topic and. I can propose that a special report that we do a special reporting project to them. And I, I, of course, I always emphasize the really profound ripple effects that environmental journalism can have for the rest of their portfolio, because I know that no funder is just funding one thing, or at least that’s very rare. And yeah, just how Mongabay would sit in their portfolio. I. amongst the advocacy groups or amongst the programmatic work they’re supporting, or I think there’s always space for environmental journalism. Independent environmental journalism. So what that looks like in practicality, I I approach with a specific goal in mind to receive funding, to do some reporting on, this illegal wildlife trade and I have a conversation with that funder and it usually goes something like this. I know you’re interested in this topic. We’re very interested in doing independent reporting on that topic. They know that they’re going to. Be donating to Mongabay to do reporting on this, theme of illegal wildlife trade. And then once the money is allocated and, a editor is assigned to the project at that point it’s really in their hands and they, they don’t know where the money is coming from. They just have a budget. And they have a theme that they need to do reporting on. That’s, basically how it works. So that’s, I went from very broad, from core level funding all the way down to our most kind of specific projects, which is special reporting projects. And I just want to add a little note, if you happen to be a funder listening to this Special reporting projects are harder to manage internally than core funding. I’ll just, I’ll, I’ll leave it there.

Mike: I really appreciate the transparency on this, Dave. And I think it’s important for people to, to know, because people may have questions about the ethics, but there’s a real hard line ethical standard there. It’s not like someone’s donating money to the organization and then having editorial sway on the story. That’s not a, that’s not a thing that happens. And so that’s an important thing to, to highlight. So I do appreciate you going over that detail there.

Dave: Yeah. and you know what, what happens? Some, I mean, I, we have, been approached, I’ve been approached to do reporting on certain things before, and it sounded like there was going to be overreach. you just walk away At that point, I’ve actually recommended, instead of talking to Mongabay, which is independent journalism, like maybe. Maybe they’re better suited spending their money on like a pr campaign or something. Some where they have more control over what the narrative is. Yeah, that happens actually fairly frequently.

Mike: What is like the biggest, positive feedback or just what is the biggest feedback you hear from people about the work that Mongabay does?

Dave: I honestly, I think most of the most positive feedback comes from the conservation practitioner community people who are on the ground. For example, I was just up in Berkeley around engaging in an event around ERs, and there was at least two or three organizations there that came up and told me the, stories about, how useful Mongabay is for them and how much they’ve learned and how important it is for, their work on the ground to have kind of those one, the information dissemination of Mongabay, but two really just like the higher, higher level of governance that can be achieved through transparency and accountability. They really do look at it as a key piece of the conservation sector. And yeah, it’s really nice. It’s really, it’s. It is one of the most rewarding things when I go to a conference or something and when I tell people I work for Mongabay, their eyes light up o oftentimes if they’re working in the conservation like community there’s just a level of respect that the Mongabay kind of brand has at this stage in our, growth trajectory. And that’s all resultant of. Really, from great leadership at the top to just absolute dedication and the editorial team. I just can’t even tell you. It makes my, all my fundraising possible having such high quality work to be able to demonstrate. My mom says, the proof has to be in the pudding.

Mike: For anyone who’s listening, be they a regular reader or listener or, potential funder, and they are potentially interested in in helping out Mongabay, what do you want to say to them?

Dave: Say hello. I’m a people person. I want to hear from you. I want to have a conversation with you.

Mike (narration): If you want to connect with Dave, his email is dave@mongabay.com and he can also be found on LinkedIn. Feel free to send him a message,

Dave: Honestly, I, don’t my approach towards fundraising is almost more of an advisory approach. I know Mongabay I, can’t just sell Mongabay incessantly. I don’t want to come off as a used car salesperson. Nothing against that. I just I know there’s. Plenty of avenues towards impact and I want to have kind of an open dialogue with anybody that’s interested in the environment to, to learn about, kind of solutions for what they want to fund. offer solutions, help people win, so to speak. Yeah, I’m, an open and transparent person and I just, I want to, I wanna learn more, and I want to talk to you. That’s my plea.

Mike: And, piggybacking off of that, you actually help you help manage a family foundation that donates money to conservation organizations. And this is something that’s separate from Mongabay. But it’s really cool. Can you tell us about this foundation?

Dave: Yeah. So, yeah, it’s separate. It’s separate from Mongabay. It’s separate, but I would say interrelated in the sense that a lot of what Mongabay is. Reports on are topics that we’re interested in helping out with. So we are, always uncovering opportunities from a funder standpoint finding new organizations that are doing interesting work. So yeah, that’s this has been an incredible synergy between the two from a fundraising standpoint as well. It’s because, I am also a, funder on top of a fundraiser. I understand the difficulties of, both. And for example, like at our family foundation. We get our money out the door in the first quarter every year because I, as a fundraiser know the trepidation that can occur when it’s, December 15th in the smack dab in the middle of the holidays, and you are still waiting on some really key funding to come in. So I’d never want to do that to anybody. So, we get our money out quick. We give; we get our money out. Core funding, so unrestricted and we really are like, very, low reporting requirements. Just a verbal check-in. And this is of course, after a lot of due diligence and understanding of, the type of organization and, what they’re trying to solve for. And yeah. Building relationships. Again, I think I may have described myself as a relational fundraiser while I’m also a relational funder. For me, it’s all about building trusted relationships where you can really rely and depend on people to be, helping out.

Mike: As we continue, Mongabay is growing, ha has grown, quite a lot. it’s almost doubled in, in size since I’ve, joined the team and it, seems

Dave: How many years have you been here? What year are you on now?

Mike: I think I’m on year five. I don’t know. I can’t…

Dave: Wow. Time. Time flies.

Mike: it does fly….and you are going on year 10, I believe?

Dave: Correct.

Mike: Yeah. I has been a journey so far. And we’re always doing new projects, working on new things. Are there any projects that, that you are working on, editorial firewall withstanding that you can share with us that you find exciting?

Dave: Yeah, I mean, I am just, I think I would I’m really excited about the momentum. I sense, all, all worldly issues aside I would say for the past 18 months or so I, in my interactions whether it’s a Zoom call or in-person events there has been a palpable momentum shift that I believe is working in our favor at an organizational level. I think there’s some sort of Precipice that was reached at a brand recognition level or something? for the first eight years, I don’t think I can count, maybe on my hand, on one hand how many people reached out to me and said, I love Mongabay. I would like to donate to you. It does not happen very often. Like every single donation that we received, we, really had to work for. And I think. I think, we’ve had some very catalytic funders come to the table in the past couple years that are engaged in like a trust-based approach of philanthropy that reached out that to me or Rhett. And that’s really exciting because it’s just, and I hope it continues. It’s, rare. And hopefully it’s a trend. So I’m excited the fact about the fact that maybe I’m seeing a trend here. I’m not sure if you are on the editorial side of things or are seeing or sensing any momentum shifts or anything.

Mike: I mean, I will, just say that lots of people do reach out to me in regards to the podcasts much more frequently than they used to. And I’ve noticed that particularly just in the past few months. And so that, that’s been a, there is definitely a palpable I. Recognition in that regard. But that’s really exciting to hear that, that more people are approaching you. I should have brought this up earlier and I want to give you a chance to, talk about it, but you mentioned trust-based philanthropy. What, is trust-based philanthropy?

Dave: It’s essentially, giving money and getting out of the way. I mean, that’s how I look at it as a funder. I know that I’m not an expert in everything. In fact, I could probably argue I’m almost an expert in nothing. But there are very, high quality experts out there that are working on critical issues that, are, can be philanthropically supported. At a certain level, you. As a funder, you learn and you educate yourself as much as you possibly can on something, I’d say to the point where you can identify the experts and you build a relationship with them that’s based on trust, is based on track record. And then, at a certain point you offer donations with no strings attached and you just let the expert and the be the good person that they are and do what’s best with the money. That’s, I mean, that’s me describing it in very non-technical terms, but

Mike: No, that’s a great,

Dave: Yeah.

Mike: That’s a great explanation. Listen, I, have to ask you about this because it’s it’s, this year has been a really tough year for the city of Los Angeles, which you are a lifelong resident of. And I am a former resident of, it’s a, it’s, a place, it’s a community that’s near and dear to my heart. Can you share with us how are things going at this moment and, how are you how are you faring amidst the tragedy that has occurred?

Dave: Yeah, I mean, Mike, thank you for, asking about that. So I mean, it’s, really been, I. A year defined by a tragedy in that sense. the fires were so unbelievable. it, I think in probably my wildest dreams and imagination, I, couldn’t have imagined the devastation that they wrought. And it’s actually on a personal level, it’s totally making me reimagine. what’s possible from a wildfire and just restructure my my understanding of, safety from a wildfire. for example, I was very. I grew up in the Santa, hiking in the Santa Monica Mountains. Just being a Southern Californian it’s just, you, deal with smoke, you deal with fires almost every year. You don’t expect it to go that far into urban areas. And I just want to acknowledge that a lot of our our network. Here at Mongabay and, including supporters really had their lives turned upside down. some living in the Palisades. Just want to express my sorrow and that, I’m here, I want to help. The other potential. a concern, first of all, I’m concerned about the long-term effects of, certain pollutants. for example lots of it wasn’t just, grass and trees that were burning. it was plastics and. industrial areas with toxic pollutants and that all went up in the air. And then what didn’t go up in the air, settled on the ground. And then we had these torrential rains and that went into the ocean. So I still think we’re figuring out the long-term ramifications of what that means for, ecosystem health and human health. But I think the silver lining is through these instances that happen to us at a very local level we can start to extrapolate larger global trends. And I, for many years I’ve been very concerned about the changing climate and. Here in Southern California, we’re prone to droughts, we’re prone to water scarcity, we’re prone to fires, and a changing climate less predictable climate. Only it makes the situation worse. So it’s my hope that, after we get through the immediate destruction and we get people safe and secure, that we have broader conversations about how we can be more sustainable at a local level here in California, and hopefully set a trend that other states can follow.

Mike: Dave it’s been a pleasure having you on. Before I leave, I, have to ask you this question, what is your favorite animal and why?

Dave: Oh, wow. Okay. So that’s the hardest question yet. Can I give, three? I’m gonna start with number one is the Pacific Gopher Snake. And I’ll tell you why it is. one, it’s a, very pretty snake nice checkered pattern on its back. They’re super common here in Southern California. They’re very docile. I think I, love them so much. Beyond their, cuteness and all that. I love them because I think that snakes generally speaking are misunderstood. And this, poor gopher snake part of its defense mechanism is to act like a rattlesnake. So people who are not well versed in, identify snake identification. They, may find a gopher snake in their yard and this gopher snake might be, alarmed and say, Hey, I’m, gonna shake my tail. They, rattle their, they don’t have rattles, but they, vibrate their tail and it actually sounds a like a rattling tail, they’ll hit it against a leaf or a, some brush or something, and then they’ll coil up and look all tough, even though they’re totally sweet and harmless animals. And unfortunately, growing up, walking around the neighborhood, I would find snakes with their heads cut off gopher snakes. And that’s because there’s a, kind of a, some people have a core fear of snakes and yeah. Go for snakes, you’re probably my number one, totally misunderstood. You act like a rattlesnake when you aren’t. It works in nature. It doesn’t work against human beings who have a core fear of snakes. Do your research, everybody. I learn how to identify a gopher snake. They’re harmless. They’re eating, the gophers and the rats, and they’re, they’re helping a lot with that. So they’re, beneficial animals to have on your property. And I think I’ll just stop. I’m gonna, I said three, I’m gonna just do two. I’ll probably say I, blue belly. that’s a, classic for us that grew up in Southern California. You chase ’em around. they look at you. They’re, doing pushups, they’re acting sassy. I, it’s actually really funny. I don’t know if this is true or not. I don’t know. I’m like not an animal behavioral. Specialist or anything. But I have noted and observed that as a kid, I, when I was trying to catch one, I’d put my hand out and if it was on a wall or something, it would just, the second it gets like just above where you can reach it, stops there strategically and gazes down upon you, gives you some pretty serious side eye and starts doing pushups, as very triumphantly. Yeah, they have a lot of personality, those little guys. And I love blue belly lizards.

Mike: Dave, I’m really inspired by the fact that your two choices are like two animals I’ve never heard of and now I have to learn more about these. I’m very, inspired to check in and get more of a sense of what these animals are all about.

Dave: I mean, I’m also a cat guy. I’m a cat guy too. I, yeah, I love felines. I’ll, admit that. I’ll, come out and say it. I, absolutely love a, a good lab cat or, from a lab cat all the way up to pumas and bobcats and lynxes, or, Tigers, et cetera. I mean, they all act the same and they’re all under your, I mean, but you have one under your roof and has these really wild instincts. Pretty cool to observe. So I like cats too.

Mike: Dave it’s been a pleasure having you on the show. Thank you for joining us to tell us more about fundraising, about our nonprofit model, and we wish you all the best out there in Los Angeles. .

Dave: Oh, absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Mike (narration):  As he suggested, if you want to get in touch with Dave Martin and say hello. I’ve linked his mangabey profile in the show notes of this episode. but you can also reach out to him at dave@mongabay.com. As always, if you’re enjoying the Mongabay newscast or any of our podcast content and you want to help us out, we encourage you to spread the word about the work we’re doing by telling a friend and leaving a review. Word of mouth is one of the best ways to help expand our reach. But you can also support us by becoming a monthly sponsor via our patreonPage@patreon.com slash Mongabay. As mentioned, Mongabay is a nonprofit news outlet, so even pledging a dollar per month makes a big difference and helps us offset the production costs. So if you’re a fan of our audio reports from Nature’s Frontline, go to patreon.com/Mongabay to learn more and support the Mongabay newscast. But you can also read our news and inspiration from Nature’s frontline at mongabay.com, or you can follow us on social media. Find Mongabay on LinkedIn at Mongabay News and on Instagram threads, Bluesky, Mastodon, Facebook, and TikTok, where our handle is @Mongabay or on YouTube @MongabayTV. Thanks as always for listening.