The following is an interview with M. Ganser, an activist from Detroit who is a member of Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP), the most prominent anti-Zionist Jewish organization in the United States. Large numbers of young people, in particular, have participated in JVP, and the group has carried out hundreds of actions against the genocide in Gaza under the slogan “Not in Our Name.” This interview is a partnership with Left Voice’s sister site in Argentina, La Izquierda Diario.
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What’s it like to be an anti-Zionist Jew in the U.S. at this time?
Most of the Jewish people that I interact with at this point are anti-Zionist Jews, but in the larger scheme of things, we’re not the norm. What’s most visible among Jewish communities is Jewish Zionism.
Right now, even within Jewish communities, we (anti-Zionist Jews) are regarded as a lunatic fringe, as having internalized antisemitism, or as not being informed enough to know what we’re talking about. The dominating institutions use these arguments to undermine and delegitimize Jewish anti-Zionism. I’ve also encountered an implication that we’re pandering to progressives and leftists, like we’re “taking the easy way out.” As if it’s easy to alienate ourselves from our entire families and where we came from, and to overcome decades of indoctrination and brainwashing.
The assumption is that being Jewish and being anti-Zionist are antithetical. And that if a Jew is anti-Zionist, it must be because they’re too lazy to learn history, or too ignorant to understand it.
At the same time, anti-Zionist Jews aren’t a monolith. “Anti-Zionist Jew” is a broad way to identify. For instance there are some people who, if we’re organizing something, it would be obvious we’re not going to work with cops, or get a permit. We’re not gonna get on the sidewalk if they tell us to get on the fucking sidewalk. For some anti-Zionist Jews, that is not obvious. Some anti-Zionist Jews think the cops are there to protect them, and to keep people safe. It’s sickening, and confusing, and sad.
There are people who want to see a free Palestine and we’ll work on this together. It’s one thing to say the problem is that Palestine isn’t free. It’s another thing to say we have to dismantle imperialism, and capitalism which upholds it. And that if we don’t, even if Palestine does get free, the problems that led to the occupation in the first place would still be intact.
Sometimes, in organizing spaces, I encounter things that edge on antisemitism, or that are just actual antisemitism. If I were to call it that, I would risk being accused of simping for Zionism or something, which is totally not what I’d be doing, but I find myself fearful of bringing it up.
I’m wondering what you think about this: I went on Facebook and there are family members or people I grew up with who live in Israel. They’re posting pictures of their kids’ birthday parties, or their holiday gatherings, or their kids’ graduations. And I’m like, people are starving to death miles away from you, and you have no awareness of this or you don’t care. It’s devastating.
Then, on Instagram, I saw a video someone posted of (presumably) Israeli men dancing to shitty techno music on a beach. Beards, kippot, tzitzis, etc. with a caption pointing out the same dynamic; people living a business-as-usual life, while only miles away, their neighbors are being systematically mass-murdered. In the comments section of the post, I could count on one hand the number of comments I saw that didn’t use the word “demon” or “devil.”
It is wild how moments like these open more space for these antisemitic tropes to gain traction and be trafficked around. How do you respond to those that equate antisemitism with anti-Zionism?
It depends on who they are and what the context is. I usually just point it out, again. What’s your answer for that? I find it harder to point out in leftist spaces when I see the two being conflated.
In the past two years in Left Voice, we’ve gone to such pains to emphasize that anti-Zionism is not antisemitism and to explain that anti-Zionism is a political stance and antisemitism is connected to a legacy of oppression. And having a political critique of Israel is not the same as spouting hatred for the Jewish people. Showing that we can have political freedom to express opposition to the state policies of Israel. And then also point out the ways that Israel collaborates with antisemites to promote its political approach. There’s such an intense, intense goal from mainstream institutions to hammer down that anti-Zionism is antisemitism that it becomes repeatedly necessary to reiterate it and think of new creative ways and more clear ways of putting forward that position.
What is Jewish Voice for Peace? And why did you join the organization?
Right after October 7th, a lot of us [anti-Zionist Jews on the Left in Detroit] were looking for each other, and looking for how to organize in that moment, understanding that our social position and our identities were being weaponized. Many of us felt we had to undermine that weapon. So in the fall of 2023, we planned a couple things autonomously, not associated with JVP. Eventually it was like, well, what should we do now? One of my friends felt the obvious next step would be to join JVP. It seemed like joining would come with a lot of support for what we were trying to do. Nationally and in New York, JVP had done a solid job snapping into action and becoming vocal and visible in the ways that the moment was requiring of them. We thought joining JVP would be a way to plug into a national effort, connect us to local elders, give us access to regional and national connections and support, etc.
It seemed like the local JVP chapter wasn’t moving in alignment with JVP National. It seemed like the chapter was operating as a place for its members to commiserate about how horrible the situation was, and to plan events like film screenings, panel discussions, book signings, and protests. They stewarded longstanding relationships with some Palestinian organizers and organizations in town, showing up for their events, and speaking at their events whenever asked. For the people who started the chapter, their objective was to be present and visible as a way to interrupt the dominant narrative that Jews are Zionists and that Zionism is for Jews. I don’t know how much that evolved over time because it seemed like maybe it hasn’t at all, which is fine, because that is a thing we should be doing. But we should be doing other things too. We should have a broader political objective, and we should be working toward it in more ways.
At some point, before 2023, local chapters were supposed to sign on to JVP National’s principles. Our chapter didn’t, and I don’t know why the chapter has been able to continue with the name JVPD without having agreed to the principles. So when a group of us showed up to join, with an understanding of what JVP seemed to be about in other cities, we found it wasn’t really like that in Detroit.
By winter, I wasn’t sure if I wanted to stick around or get more involved with JVPD. But two friends thought we could (and should) maneuver the chapter toward more alignment with the principles of JVP National. We got voted onto their steering committee, then we dissolved it, and introduced a spokescouncil structure instead. The process took a lot of time, and a lot of work from a lot of people, and I’m not sure if the outcomes so far have been worth the costs.
Some of the pervasive conflicts in our chapter are attributed to there being a generational divide. I don’t think that’s what it is. I think there’s a political divide that we don’t have the language to describe, or the clarity to recognize.
Both in Detroit and in terms of the huge militant public presence that JVP has had nationally and made waves internationally, why do you think it’s important to have JVP as a leader in this movement?
I don’t necessarily think it’s important for JVP to be a leader in this movement, but I do think it’s important for Jewish identity to be apparent and present in this moment and in this picture. Jewish identity is being used as a weapon, and I think we have to take hold of that weapon and use it against the enemy instead of just letting it be used by our enemy. JVP is the group that is doing that most visibly and impactfully right now.
What is your view of the State of Israel?
My view of the state of Israel is that Jews walked into a trap, and are being set up to be scapegoated. Not to dismiss people’s complacency and activity. The state of Israel creates enough political distance for the United States, so it can blame this on Jews instead of being responsible for carrying out this genocide on their own.
On the one hand, Netanyahu is going beyond what the U.S. wanted. Like, it’s a problem for them.
Yeah, the state of Israel is a golem. Kind of. In Ashkenazi folklore, a golem is a lifeless, man-made creation. Like a state. It’s often made of clay or earth. The purpose of a golem is usually protection, of a person, a community, or an ideal. In this case, this state golem was made to protect imperialist interests. It was packaged and sold with the promise of protecting the vulnerable and recently traumatized Jewish community, which was never really what its purpose was. Over time, the golem archetype’s power grows, and eventually, its creator (in this case, the empire, and at this point, U.S. imperialism) loses control. The dynamic Natenyahu has been introducing to the mix recently looks to me like a golem state becoming uncontrollable by its creators. Autonomous, and dangerous. (In the narrative form of a golem story, a golem is only considered dangerous when it is dangerous to its creator or to whatever it was created to protect.)
You think that’s baked into the colonial project?
If you’re asking if I think that the state of Israel has a right to exist, the answer is no. I don’t think any states have a right to exist.
Do you think that for the founders and architects of the state, their interest was in keeping Jews safe?
No, no, no, no. But I think that packaging is what earned the project its Jewish buy-in.
The state of Israel solves a couple problems. One, it keeps Jews out of white people’s backyards. Like, “We gotta put them somewhere, and I don’t really want them near me!” Two, it serves as a bastion for Empire in the region. Three, it positions the Jews to carry out the atrocities imperialism requires, without the U.S. or anyone else having to do it themselves directly. This way, in the end, Empire can be like “It was the Jews. They did a genocide. They did bad. We had no idea what was going on with all the weapons we were giving them. Oops, not our fault, even though we are the direct beneficiaries of all the outcomes.”
Look at who benefits from this. Look at who’s funding it. Whose genocide is it? That’s some of what I think about the state of Israel. I think a lot of rank-and-file Zionists are deeply confused. Misinformed, traumatized, and brainwashed. I think that because I’ve been through it.
I think the state of Israel was a trick, and I don’t think it was ever about Jewish safety. It was never a gift to the Jews, it was a trap. And our unprocessed grief and fear were used as bait.
With the Far Right attacking the cause for Palestinian liberation, what do you see as the stakes at this time?
Part of me thinks that anything they are doing right now is to carve out space for what they’ll do next. They’re normalizing this way of targeting people. They’re normalizing it so they can target whatever they need to target next, to advance their cause.
Democrats and Republicans are all using this cry of antisemitism to intimidate and silence voices that are speaking up on behalf of Palestinian liberation or just historically accurate information in general! Totally unhinged stuff that’s happening, and it’s getting buy-in from some of these university institutions. Universities are giving over information that should be protected. They’re conceding to Trump’s demands, when they should be withholding. It creates a different standard of how those institutions interact with government. It’s pretty disturbing stuff.
It also further distorts what antisemitism is. Obviously it’s wrong for so many reasons, but one of the byproducts is that collectively, we get farther away from understanding what is and isn’t antisemitism. And that’s pretty scary too.
I also think that what we’re seeing is the inevitable outcome of capitalism. I don’t think that it’s about the Right. I think it’s about establishment politics in general.
So how do you think it’s possible to confront the right wing or governments like Trump’s that persecute anyone who’s denouncing the genocide of the state of Israel and the Palestinian Liberation movement?
Trump has a lot of leverage with these institutions because he can withhold funding, he can change their tax structure. He can coerce them into submitting. We have to be able to operate outside of what exists. Outside of the need for dollars to make things happen. I don’t know the answers to any of this, I’ve never even been invited to talk about it before. The ways that Trump gets leverage are precisely the ways that we have to be free.
What actions are you taking to denounce what’s happening in the Gaza Strip? This open-air genocide?
Some friends and I started a street theater troupe. We made a cantastoria modeled after a Bread and Puppet show from 1966, called “Fire.” Ours is called “Breath.” It starts with a lighthearted tone, honoring breath as vital for life and comfort. It continues to demonstrate breath as an access point to connection and collective care. A way we can listen to each other in moments of despair, and share stories and lessons across generations, etc. Then, the mood shifts, and “Death comes.” A personified depiction of Death, a skeleton on horseback, waving a flag and trampling over some of the characters we show in earlier pages of the performance. The script continues by revealing ways in which this personified Death character turns the life-sustaining force of breath into destruction. Turning the breath of life into smoke and rubble, turning the breath we use to share stories into silence. The piece ends by asking the audience “In whose name does he act? Whose money does he use? Who is he?”
Very simple words with provocative imagery, the show is under five minutes. The formula is to lure the audience in, allowing them to feel this is approachable, interesting, lighthearted entertainment. As it progresses, it gets more serious, and what we’re talking about becomes evident. Before people have a chance to have whatever reaction they might normally have, it’s over.
I am also working on a zine for Jewish middle schoolers. It depicts a conversation between three friends who are riding the bus to Jewish summer camp, and sharing dialogue that challenges a number of assumptions that young Zionists are conditioned to believe.
Another group I work with targets elected officials, urging them to cave to the public outrage about the starvation of Gaza. We use a variety of tactics, ranging from benign to disruptive. Drawing from the “seven points of contact” theory, we like these campaigns to look like they’re multiple unrelated campaigns finding the same audience, but coming from different sources.
I also see my involvement in Yiddishkeit — through visual art, music, dance, and theater — as being part of my anti-Zionist agenda. I believe that fostering Jewish identity outside of religion and Zionism helps loosen the hold both of those frameworks have on defining Jewish identity. It can be one part of breaking down the conflation of Zionism and Judaism.
I mean, nothing feels like enough. Nothing feels like enough.
Originally published in La Izquierda Diario